(no subject)

[feotakahari]

So, this whole push to reclaim darkfic as something that’s okay and healthy . . . How does that interact with all those posts various people make about “that creepy guy in my writing class”? What distinguishes the author whose dark themes are acceptable from the author whose dark themes make him a “creepy guy?” Because I have the strong suspicion the answer is gender. (Well, that and autism.) 

Comments

[lb_lee]

Enh, I must be wording it badly. But it's the difference between, "this person is writing about child molestation but clearly doesn't feel it's the right thing to do," and "this person is writing about child molestation, but I keep getting a really creepy feeling they're doing it because they think it's okay."

It's not what they write, but how they're doing it.

[feotakahari]

But by what standard are we judging “think it’s okay”? I mean, I recently read a Borderlands/RWBY fusion fic by an author who also does gore porn. The author’s approach to violence made me really uncomfortable, and I could easily say “the real purpose of this fic is to create an environment in which over-the-top bloody violence against anyone in your way is seen as acceptable and even heroic.” Or I could say “Whatever; it’s the author’s kink, and we don’t care about kinks unless they’re actually hurting people.” At what point do I start judging? (/Shaming? Or is there a distinction between judging and shaming here?)

[lb_lee]

I mean, that's a good question! And I admit, I do feel like I'm trying to nail jelly to a wall. *thinks for a while* Let me see...

I guess in this case, I'm judging "think it's okay," by other records of the author's/creator's actions of statement and belief. The creative work alone can not be evidence on its own; it can ONLY be supplemental to more direct statements of the creator's belief, and even then, it has to be used carefully.

For example: I don't know if Piers Anthony was a pedophile, and I would never say he was one; I much prefer to think he would never hurt a child! But I CAN say that his work has a lot of children having sex with much older adults, and I can quote his author's notes where he says that child/adult sex shouldn't be treated so harshly, and that incest might be a natural blossoming of parenthood. I can cite those books and author's notes, and say that they made me feel creeped out.

But saying that isn't intended as shaming. It's purely describing what he's written and said in the books I've read, and my ensuing reaction. He may or may not be a creep, but I do find it creepy. That's on me.

But in the fic you describe, I don't know anything about the author, so I can't make that call. The creep factor for me has to be involved with a creator I know more about--because the work alone isn't enough. I know what I believed when I wrote when I was younger, which was why I used myself as an example. I don't think it's shaming my younger self to say I found the work creepy; I think it's just a statement of the reactions it inspired in me, and possibly others, and why.

Especially since often, even the creepiest creators, if I know them well enough, don't make me think, "ew, you're such a gross person, get away from me, feel shame!" They just make me feel sad for them. Does that make any sense?

[feotakahari]

Based on that last paragraph, I’m still not getting it. To go outside of conventional “creepy” for a moment, I recently read a comic where the characters I most identified with were really ugly. They got dim lighting and some sinister dialogue, and when they died, I wondered if the author considered that a happy ending and thought people like me should die too. But I didn’t feel sad for the author. I just felt really frustrated. And with this and other stories where I didn’t trust the author not to hate me, it didn’t seem like the same experience that people are describing when they post about “creepy guys.”

[lb_lee]

Sorry about that. I guess that's my failing, then. Maybe we're just coming at it from different angles and not able to meet at the middle. And maybe that's okay too. The reason I like reading your posts is that you always give me something to think about, even if I don't agree, and I always like seeing your thoughts on something.